March 4, 2023
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Tune in to hear about leaders in the IOTA, AZERO, HBAR, XRP & more ecosystems talk about what happened in 2022 and what is coming up in 2023. Additionally, the panelists speak about how networks can work together to break silos and work toward a multi-chain paradigm.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
And it's extremely important, like you know, most of us that are in this space. Still, if you hop into any normal Twitter space, you know, you know, there's all sorts of silos. There's all sorts of great silos, but there's a lot of silos. If you try to get into a heavy Bitcoin space, I mean, good luck. If you try to get into, if you try to get into a heavy Ethereum space, I mean, I mean, good luck, for the most part. But yeah, I totally think the coopetition aspect, not only within ecosystems but within networks that are providing real utility and value, is something that we're just going to naturally see over time. And that comes, hopefully, you know, through relationships driven, you know, out of, you know, spaces like this. People can make contacts, and they find Synergy and thought, and they figure out ways to have a mutual kind of relationship across networks where yes, my network gets a ton of value, but yes, your network gets a ton of value as well, and so do our projects. So, I did want to kind of lead into, Justin with Serenity Shield. Right now, when we talk about digital sovereignty and we talk about, what that looks like from a custody standpoint and our data, in our, you know, our personal belongings essentially that are going to be tokenized at some point in time, I'd love to hear Serenity Shield come up and speak a little bit about what you guys are facilitating. I know that you guys definitely also have kind of that cross-ecosystem mindset, so if you guys could give us an overview of what you guys are facilitating, that'd be fantastic,
Serenity Shield – Justin – Business Development
For sure. And thanks for having me, always a pleasure to be here. I'm really enjoying the conversation, that's been happening in terms of, I guess to hit on the point to say that like Serenity Shield comes from the same, ethos as that. There's not going to be one chain or one altcoin or one token. There's not one winner takes all in this space right now. It's such nascent tech, and what we really need to do is continue to keep working together in those kind of like networking capacities and cross-chain support so that we can see mass adoption. And I think where, the Serenity Shield product fits in with all this is we're coming from a standpoint of interoperability, and we want to make sure that our users can store whatever they want at any time and point in history on or using our protocol no matter what chain they have their digital assets on. Because as it was just said, like everybody has value somewhere, and there's a space for everyone here, and we want to make sure that we facilitate that and allow people to have access to robust security tools to protect the assets that they find valuable. And just a real quick 30,000-foot view of what we do and what we're trying to accomplish with our with our data. We're using NFTs as a three-part key system to essentially allow users to secure access to their data and then also have inheritance protocol If they want to, you know, leave their own will or something to a loved one or a friend, family member in the event of their death without them having to worry about shelling out attorney's fees or putting a third-party intermediary between them, their assets, and their wishes. Really, I don't want to show our project. I actually just want to be here for part of the conversation. And what I think the best is, you know, we've been up here now, I think six or seven different times, and we've created partnerships in the background that we've, you know, sparked from these types of conversations. So I think that's what's so important, and that's what everybody's been saying on this conversation so far, that there's not one winner, we're all going to do this together. So I mean, these spaces are massively valuable, so thank you for having them. If you have any specific questions or like that, you know, I'm happy to answer them, but I definitely don't want to just chill.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
Yeah, I think we might be on the Twitter algorithm today because like we did an event this past weekend, we didn't do a Wednesday space last week, which is totally fine, and Twitter was rug-pulling today. But again, the whole purpose of these things is to create synergy amongst multiple ecosystems, and I know for even from your guys' standpoint, like you mentioned, I mean, you make relationships by getting out there and being uncomfortable. I mean, it's totally the way that that that these networks are going to start, you know, creating a patchwork of interoperability in ways that make sense to each individual network is by getting into spaces and by having spaces that aren't just chill-fests, but talking about the real things being built upon these networks. So I definitely want to ask, you know, from, you know, from the Aleph Zero standpoint, I know I kind of touched on it a little bit previously, but you know, you guys have gotten a lot of traction, especially, you know, even more so recently, and um, I would love to hear your guys' thoughts around, you know, what you're most excited about from the ecosystem moving forward into this year. So what are the things that are down, you know, down the line on the Alessio or roadmap that you guys are excited about, where are you at with them, and how do you think they're going to affect the overall usability of the network?
Aleph Zero - Rafael – Community Manager
Yeah, that's a very good question and, um, and yeah, recently, we are focused on two main things. Uh, we're focusing on smart deploying is more contracts in the mainnet, that's something that our community is looking forward to for a long time, which is great. And also, launching the ecosystem funding program, which will help a lot of developers and a lot, a lot of projects to join the ecosystem. We believe that those few things will create a great impact in the project and also in the community. Um, and that's exactly what we are focusing, probably that's what we are most excited about. The ecosystem since the beginning has been our priority as we see, that's one of the only ways to really create a great impact for the space.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
That's awesome. And I'll ask the same question to to Iota and Adam and the Shimmer Network. What are you most looking forward to, because you guys have, as everybody else up here, a massive year ahead of you guys, what is most exciting to you about Iota 2.0? And what potential value propositions can be driven out from that?
IOTA Network – Adam – Business Development
So, the closer target that I'm actually most excited about is the ability, so once our shimmer EVM goes live, and it has this kind of extra property that this, the EVM can kind of reach down into the tangle and access functions there, like minting tokens and burning and sending, tokens on the Fearless layer one. So what I'm most excited about, honestly, is to see the community projects kind of grow, and they're able to go make their product and make money off of it, and the character of the ecosystem, I think, will change. It'll, it won't be so much as everyone looking at the foundation thinking, here make this product. It, instead, will be all the people who've been in the community, who've been making the products, it. Like more attention will go on them, and our their success will become our success too, so I'm really excited for this kind of shift and how the feeling of it, Iota 2.0. I'm obviously very excited about this, is kind of having the Cordicide go away, and or quarter side come and then the coordinator go away. This is something that's for us, like kind of the Holy Grail, so I'm really excited about our upcoming Mana model that we have, which is, since we're moving to kind of like a two token system where you have Iota and access, kind of the land or some digital real estate, and then Mana is built or Mana is generated from the Iota token, and then the Mana is used for throughput for the network. I've been reading through the tokenomics paper for that for a couple of hours today. Internally, it's still, it's not public yet, but, reading about that, or being sitting in research meetings, all this stuff gets me really excited for how we think, uh, the future of DLTs will be, and what, yeah, I mean, inching closer to this kind of future that we're imagining. This is what's exciting for me.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
I gotta ask from the Aleph Zero and the Iota ecosystems, who are we try, we you know, we do try to make this a little bit easier for the community that might be down there listening. Who are the best people to potentially follow that aren't like super hype driven in content, that are just consistently on top of their game, you know, presenting what's actually going on within the network, and even like researching within these networks as well? So from Aleph Zero, I do know that you guys, you have like Super Aleph Zero, and I, that guy is freaking amazing. He actually is the guy that got me into contact with you guys you know, anybody else that you guys might have that you guys would, you know, be interested in maybe just who you like to follow for stuff that they're finding, or any suggestions for the community down there?
Aleph Zero - Rafael – Community Manager
Oh yeah, that's a very good question, and actually, we do have a few people. Not only Super Aleph Zero, but most of our investors nowadays have been creating a lot of content on Twitter which is amazing. So, let me take a look here and made a short list.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
I got my Twitter, well, I personally have my Twitter up, so I'm going to give some follows because I want to learn more. So, this is an opportunity for everybody down there as well to do the same thing because you can probably get really good research from people that are vetted out.
Aleph Zero - Rafael – Community Manager
So, yeah, yeah, of course. So, there are a few people that are that have been doing a great job for us, which is Red Bongo, Onua, also Ali Super out of zero as well. That is Dennis that just recently joined the Ambassador program and a few other people from the Ambassador programs such as Darstagger. Yeah, those are a few other people that have been creating content for us and it has been here.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
You guys, if after this call if you guys can send me that list in Telegram, and I would love to post out a tweet from Genfinity that is, you know, are you interested in the Aleph zero? Here's from the community ambassadors that you might want to follow to learn more. That would be fantastic, I think, and same thing for Iota. So, I'll ask you the same question, Adam. Who are some of the most interesting people from the Iota and, you know, Shimmer ecosystems that you pay attention to from the community standpoint?
IOTA Network – Adam – Business Development
Oh, so people not within the foundation specifically?
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
No, just like totally like totally wild animals out there in the wild.
IOTA Network – Adam – Business Development
An animal that comes to mind is there's a guy goes by then cut crafts, and he makes this thing called spec weekly. So, in our Iota Discord, one of probably the most trafficked channels is called speculation or would you call it spec? And it has this kind of Mos Eisley characteristic, like you're there and it's grimy, and there's every now and then there's people having really controversial conversations, but it's usually entertaining. So he made his he made a YouTube channel called spec weekly where he kind of rolls up all like the stuff that goes on in there, and he's he used to be a code host of mine on Twitter spaces, and he's a great guy and super funny. So, specifically, it was one. There's actually a person that came up very recently named ID underscore Iota, and he's been kind of like seemingly scouring the GitHub of our of our Iota 2.0 devnet and trying to kind of turning it into playing English for people as updates come because obviously GitHub is where all our all our updates really live, but a lot of people don't. It's not very intuitive for people who don't do programming. So, he's been or peer that have been summarizing that, which has been really cool. And then the third one I'll shill is this person called the Shimmer intern. I think their current name is Shimei, and as you might imagine, they just kind of do memes, and other kind of stuff like that. But I think those are fun. They give the community character, they make it feel alive and, yeah, those would be my recommendations.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
Yeah, I would love for both of you guys, in those telegrams that we have together, to send over the community contributors because we would love to shine a light on them if they're, you know, because they're Bobby's providing real value and/or fun experiences to participate, you know, within, looking at the network. So, I mean, and that's that, that is like such a difficult thing to do even on Twitter because I think like the heart of crypto pretty much does exist kind of in Twitter right now. I mean, we could think about Discord or Telegram or all these individual channels that people have to go to, but those are essentially like silos, right? If we can get people following the right people that are just representing like legitimate information or whatever, they can possibly find that's a huge portion of onboarding into this space because it filters out a decent amount of but it also adds, you know, legitimate people to potentially follow for real things occurring on these networks. I mean, I'm looking down in the chat right now and I can see, um, Rose, uh, who hosts a crypto space on DXRPL weekly. I can see Crypto Eddie who does the same thing within the Xrpl, and up here today we also have death danger. So, Death Ranger, I would love you to talk about the Internet of Value Foundation that you formed in, you know, just maybe briefly, you know, touch base on what you're trying to facilitate within those aspects where it's like, you know, open forum, but also not, you know, total at consistent levels. I don't know if Death is up here, Death. Can you hear me? Oh, go ahead.
Death Ranger
Yeah, sorry. It didn't let me unmute, but of course, thank you for having me up, and it's been a great discussion already, but yeah, I have the Internet about value Foundation New York, and I hope space is Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday at 3:30 Eastern Standard Time, where I just try and spread educational awareness, not only on blockchain, DLT, and the solutions and the technology from an infrastructure standpoint, what it's What it's going to change, but from a sociological standpoint, and we talk a lot about Ai and quantum physics and different things, but thank you, thank you, of course, though, Solomon, for having me up and letting me up.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
I would like to ask the same question to May. I know you have your hand up as well, but I know you probably have a thought around the discussion, but who are some of the, you know, the biggest Contributors that you see within like the Hedera ecosystem you would, you know, you would always kind of give a shout out to like represent from like information. I can think of the con. I know you can think of a ton too.
HashPack Wallet – May Chan – Founder & CEO
So well, there's a guy called King Solomon, for example, that does a really great job of raising awareness and connecting people, yeah, well the big thing here is that, and I love this talk about building communities that the guy from Iota is talking about and really like King Solomon what you're doing with, raising awareness of the top influencers in the space that are actually like providing value and not just providing hype. I think that this is really important when you're building a community and you give the megaphone, so to speak, to the people who are leading the culture that you want to see. Right? And if you give them the voice and you get people aware of them, then you can kind of guide the community into a very positive and constructive place. And I think that that's something that we've done very well at Hedera. That's something that, I have really tried to champion in with HashPack and with building our community here with around our wallet, as we're like bringing in the NFT marketplaces, bringing in the DeFi stuff, and like finding those projects and those people that are really making noise and adding value to the space. I think that that's really how to build a strong community. If we're talking about like the influencers that do a really good job, there's just, there's a lot, but I guess I would say HBar Bull is one really good one. Zepzi is also really good. Hbar to the moon has done a lot of community stuff that is just fantastic. The list goes on and on, but basically, we've created a culture of inclusivity on Hedera and where all of the influencers kind of support each other and welcome each other and welcome new people into the space. And you know, when I look at new communities that are forming around L1s, that's the kind of thing that I would love to see, is just like those foundations, like Iota Foundation supporting those community members and bringing them on and giving them the soapbox. And I think that that's really what's going to make your community thrive, and it's something that I really try hard to do on my side.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
Yeah, it's one of the things that every ecosystem, every project always tackles, where it's, you know, you know, even from a marketing standpoint, I mean, you can look at across this entire ecosystem and you know the mass of the liquidity exists in the Ethereum space from an NFT or a DeFi proposition. And a lot of liquidity obviously exists in Bitcoin as well from like a unit of value standpoint, but you know, people paying somebody thousands of dollars for one tweet and two videos, like how does that deal necessarily like in sustainability rather than like really trying to build up and sustain these networks in a way by breaking down some of the silos between these networks. I think is a very interesting thing that takes a ton of work. It takes a ton of work to try to even facilitate any of that, but I think it's a worthwhile cause, and I think that that is going to be the cause. Like that aspect of breaking down these silos and creating this patchwork of interoperability is going to be what propels the web 3 and the crypto ecosystem forward, so just gigantic shout out to everybody up here today. I want to kind of close it out, real quick and just ask everybody up here on the panel. When Moon and Y Moon, so I'll ask, maybe I'll ask you Aleph Zero guys first. Not from the Alaska or ecosystem, don't talk about the coin price obviously, but from the crypto ecosystem as a whole, what do you think propels us forward into the into this next bull market? And what do you think sustains that level where it's not just these huge boom bust cycles, but we have that level of sustainability that like maintains valuation? What are you guys looking forward to from that regard?
Aleph Zero - Mateusz Raczynski – Marketing Manager
Hello, you know that's a tough question but from my standpoint, it may be more like continuing on the narratives that we have already, maybe they can be sustained, as the recent news where, for example, that European Union will use your knowledge groups. So for example, this is the tech that is really useful and it might be one of the drivers, but also, maybe, you know, right now we're seeing that the regulations are getting tighter around crypto, but also, if there, they will be done right and they will create more. You know, confidence in the market, so then they will encourage new participants, new users, so maybe that would spark, or maybe not spark, but continue the ground that we are having. And of course, the narrative that is always there, the Bitcoin having. I don't see how it couldn't, you know, work this way around, but I'm not a trader, so I don't know.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
Hey, this isn't a loaded question, I'll give my answer at the end of this, but okay, so I want to ask Hashport and May when Moon and why Moon before we end here. I'm gonna go to everybody up here.
Hashport - Jesse Whiteside – Director of Business Development
You know, I haven't been as busy as I have been in the space, until now, and I think, I can't speak for everyone, but I feel as though, you know, regardless of what's happening in the markets, I think we've progressively, you know, as time moves on, we're gaining steam, more integrations are happening, more interconnectedness is happening, more connections to the traditional brick and mortar web two, regardless of, you know, all of the politics in the US and what's happening there, I think ultimately what we've seen over the past, you know, 13, 14 years within the space is every cycle there is new catalysts that bring in millions and millions more users, and I don't think this time is any different. I'm just incredibly excited for it. I think, you know, in, I don't know exactly when it'll be, but, you know, in the next several years, I could see, I could see the space welcoming, you know, tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of more users because it's just that much more easy to get into the ecosystem and it's feasible as just you know, an everyday person to be able to transact and do things whereas before it might have been too fraught with, you know, different perils that might have precluded them from joining, and I think the space is highly intelligent with people that are coming from all sorts of walks of life, and that matters, right? I think we're all here cohesively. The other thing too, I think, is these Twitter Spaces are incredible. Like the fact that we can, you know, congregate and talk about this stuff, get ideas and share them it's unparalleled in human history, frankly.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
Real quick before we get to May, so Sadaf when and why? We'll give Sadaf a second. So let's go to May. May, you go when and why.
HashPack Wallet – May Chan – Founder & CEO
I'm gonna eco Jesse from Hashport here about the when, which is we're gaining steam but I don't know when it's gonna happen. But when I think about the why of web3, I look at companies like Reddit, like Nike, like Instagram, even Twitter that are slowly coming into the space that are getting their feet wet. I think that we're not there yet, like Starbucks, for example, from what I understand, their platform, which is web3 based, is still siloed on their own little ecosystem, right? They're not really going the full web 3 route where everything is decentralized. And I think that that's reasonable for brands that are really trying to move into web3, that they want that control that they are used to in web 2. But I think that the real power is when we move into web3 paradigms. And I think that the people that are building in the space today and the companies that are really trying to make something happen, they are gaining momentum and we are going to see some really big things coming up. And that is what I'm excited about, and I think that that's where we're going to see people really start to get excited about web3, and then everything will just kick off, and that's what I'm excited for.
Genfinity – Sadaf Jadran – Founder and CSO
I'm actually going to echo what everybody said, including what May just said, and I totally agree with that. Cool. Okay, well, while Solomon's hopping back on, what May just mentioned, so you see some of these key brands that are entering this space, but then you also see some of the, you know, the challenges that they face recently. I think we had MasterCard's head of I think it was the NFT or the product lead for all of their web 3 stuff, resigned, and he made it pretty public on Twitter as well, and he said that there was just way too much pressure and so many unknowns and ambiguity that he was dealing with. So I think it's still very new, but I think that if you take and it's going to be a crazy theory, but I mean there's the Cockroach Theory which is, you know, how cockroaches survive after even a, what's the tragedy that I'm thinking of a nuclear explosion, right? So cockroaches survive at the end when the dust settles. I think anyone in the space that's active right now, that's building, that's trying to educate themselves. We know it's inevitable, but when the dust does settle, they'll be the ones that, um, yeah, that will see that the fruits. So yeah, I think it's not far off, but I think that, there's a lot of education that needs to happen in the space, and I think this is a great initiative for everybody, to start familiarizing themselves with what's inevitable.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
That's awesome. Death, go ahead, sir.
Death Ranger
You know, I haven't seen you in the coast, but for a couple of weeks, but I think digital ID is actually going to be the next catalyst for the next, what I would call, defying in a regulatory, regular regulated manner, and,, insured manner, but, DeFi catalyst, and I think 2024, personally.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
Thank you, Death. Rafael?
Aleph Zero - Rafael – Community Manager
Yeah, that's actually a very funny and good question because we most likely get these two questions right: why and when, probably a hundred times per day in our community, and I'm gonna start with why, right? I believe that what we're doing now most likes will reflect but the results that we're gonna have in a few years from now. So for now, and why we are trying to, yeah, to develop our access, our ecosystem as much as possible, in bringing new partners to our, yeah, to our project, and with them, more users. I agree with what you said earlier that most likely hundreds of millions of users who will come to the space, and when that happens, we want to be ready, right? So we're trying to build, yeah, a very good technology that will sustain all those users to the network, and when, it's very hard for me to give an answer when, but what we're going to say is that we're going to keep building and keep working, bringing people to the project, to the ecosystem, which eventually will, yeah, we'll color, we will collect fruit from doing that. Right now, so I believe that's my answer. I cannot say exactly when things will actually bring more traction, but for now, in the bear market or in the bull market, we're mainly focused on building the best technology we can possibly can because that's what we believe makes a total difference in the space.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
And I mean, that's a, I mean, those are the answers that I think are totally the real answers. Valor, go for it. Justin, go for it. Follow you first.
Genfinity – Valor – Founder & CCO
So I would say that, in my opinion, it's a little bit different. I think that silos when they break, that's when we'll get true adoption, and that's also the win. So true adoption equals, you know, mass growth. I think that interoperability is very important, as well as ID, so I would say those are the key factors, at least in my mind. The UI/UX is a major issue as well, just across platforms and different ecosystems, but I would say that when silos break, that's when true adoption happens. And when that happens, that's when it will happen.
Serenity Shield – Justin – Business Development
You guys are gonna hate this, but…
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
I really do believe Justin has the best opinion ever. Whenever we stop thinking, I'll tell you because I think I know you're-- I'm gonna front-run your opinion really-- all right, try it, you tell me if I'm right, because I've had the opportunity to interview you, like, a month ago. It's when we stop thinking about crypto from a valuation standpoint, we start thinking about the tech and what it can represent.
Serenity Shield – Justin – Business Development
100%, and even further step, it's when it becomes completely boring. When people are using blockchain without knowing they're using it, when it's integrated into their phone, when it replaces iCloud or is an option to something like iCloud, Google Cloud, or Amazon AWS, that is when we will actually be at the forefront of mass adoption. Right now, I think that people are so hyped up, the media, especially when they see something like an FTX happen or a Dogecoin go crazy because Elon Musk is a sociopath and thinks that's awesome to play with people's money, they latch onto these edge cases, like you can 100x your money if you get lucky, but it's such an edge case, and people right now, I think, are mostly in a digital casino, and that's not going to breed mass adoption. So I'm always hammering the nail home and saying, when it's boring, it's better, and that's when we're gonna see the adoption come through.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
I definitely resonate with your idea. I want to let Adam give his. I know we already asked Matteus, but Adam, uh, floor is yours.
IOTA Network – Adam – Business Development
Yeah, actually, like that last one because I think the when and the why um are things that are just kind of inherently unpredictable. It's to knowing what is the narrative that is going to set it off. It might be an NFT, like a massive NFT type collection that pulls everyone back into space, but these things they hinge on so much macro stuff that I don't even really think of it. More relevant to the question is, when will it stop becoming so volatile? And I think being boring has a lot to do with it, but I phrase it a little differently in my head. So we all talk about scaling solutions and blockchain trilemmas and trying to make it where blockchains can scale for a bunch of transactions, but I think the limiting factor is mainly the block space demand side. That most of the applications that have been made appeal to a very specific type of person. There's generally a gambler or investor, and I don't say this pejoratively because I do these things as well, but use cases that are not limited to just purely speculative plays, because you can have a bunch of tokens, or let's say it doesn't cost much to get a very low fee transaction. Sentence, I mean, maybe in each main that it does, but in many other places, it's pretty easy and there's you'll find a deck in pretty much everywhere. So, but I think the next thing that really enables the next wave of use cases has to be, as someone said before, decentralized identity, and probably a mix of ZK proof and privacy. And the one thing that I haven't heard said that I is kind of one of my hobby horses, to the much to the Chagrin and my colleagues, is I always harp on stable coins. I think stable coins are going to be the one of the most disruptive things to come out of the DLT space.
Genfinity – King Solomon – Founder & CEO
Nut if the SEC has anything to do with it, well, I mean, yeah, I mean that's why they're big country, so totally why they're being regulated first too. I mean, you look at stable coins, you look at, you know, payments and settlement infrastructure. I find it hard to believe that the powers that be globally are going to try to kill the Golden Goose and not want to see what's innovated out. I think stablecoins already represent a proposition globally that is totally disruptive, as well as you know that which ties into payments and settlements, that stuff, and same thing with the exchange stuff. So, it'll be really interesting to watch how like DeFi plays out, but like centralized exchanges, if you've been paying attention to what these banks are actually going to do, I mean, they're going to have to go with same risk, same rules, same regulation, they're going to be regulated like banks or regular. The DeFi aspect is a little bit of a different animal to an extent, so I guess we have to wait, I mean, especially now that the staking stuff through the centralized exchanges is kind of occurring, with regulations, but my opinion deals very much so on the opinion of like reality where we have to stop having these boom and bust cycles and it has to deal around real use case, which I think ties in a little bit of regulation at least at the infrastructure layer to make sure that the unit of account based coins or whatever they're doing can facilitate, you know, the value that they can facilitate in a regulated format like whether it be payments or settlements or whatever it is. But I also think it's a lot of people that are just literally not like to really build out what the next use cases are, it's a mixed bag, you're going to have people building real, but then there's going to be people that launch something that promises real shits that explodes in value and then kind of creates these bubbles, which is crazy, but I don't know. It'll be interesting to watch. I think it deals on a lot of hard work, a lot of collaboration across ecosystems and networks, which is what we're trying to facilitate in these types of discussions as well. And I just wanted to give a huge shout out to all the participants up here today - Sadaff, Hashport, May, Sarah for hosting, Death Ranger, Raphael from A Left, Zero Val from Genfinity, Justin from Serenity Shield, Adam from Iota, and the Shimmer Ecosystems as well as Mateus from Alev Sierra. So, thank you guys so much for joining us. We are going to cut this and end it, but looking forward to doing the next one in the near future. So, thank you guys.
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